Why Selling is Dead but Value Creation is Alive

Intro: Helping Community Bankers grow themselves, their team, and their profits. This is the Community Bank Podcast. Now, here are your hosts, Eric Bagwell, and Tom Fitzgerald.

Eric: Welcome to the Community Bank Podcast. I’m Eric Bagwell, senior vice president, director of sales and marketing for the correspondent division of Centerstate Bank. Joining me as always, my sidekick, Tom Fitzgerald, director of strategy and research for the correspondent division. Tom, how are you, man?

Tom: I’m doing good, Eric. How are you?

Eric: Good. Now Tom had a COVID scare last week.

Tom: Last week.

Eric: He came back good.

Tom: It was negative. Negative is positive.

Eric: Yeah, negative is for sure positive, but I know COVID cases have spiked up around the country, but we’re good, we’re healthy here in Atlanta, Georgia today. It’s cold and windy just before Christmas, but we’ve got a great show for you. This show, we have Daniel Grissom, Daniel’s a sales trainer who came and did some stuff with us a couple of years ago, we recorded an interview with him. He is a high energy guy who I met actually coaching basketball a couple of years ago, probably been six years ago, but Daniel’s great. We’ve had him, like I said, a couple of times he has got some great information and we’ve got recorded that interview and we’ll play that for you today, but first before we start the show Tom is going to give us a quick, just kind of highlight of what we’re looking at this week. Go ahead, Tom.

Tom: Well as we record this right now, the market is sort of focused on the stimulus 2.0 bill, which is kind of got renewed life over the weekend and coming into the week. So, all the focus is on that. The stocks are starting to kind of feel, there is going to be some more money coming into the economy and so that’s kind of helped a lot of the stock prices. The bonds have basically been backing up on that news. Essentially, what we’ve got is a fed meeting coming up, and until we get past that, I think there’s not going to be a whole lot of movement in either stocks or bonds until we do get past the December fed meeting, and then of course, don’t look to the fed to be doing a ton at this meeting because we still have those twin Georgia runoffs in the in the US Senate, and so until that’s resolved, which is going to be January the fifth, and we see the makeup of the Senate kind of coming out of that, that’ll sort of dictate how much the fed is going to expect to see on the fiscal side of the ledger given whether the Republicans hold the majority or whether the Democrats flip it. So again, sort of a waiting game, I think, for the fed, you know, coming through next week’s meeting, and for that, I think the market’s just going to sort of trade in a pretty tight range until we get through that.

Eric: Sounds good. A lot of stuff kind of still up in the air.

Tom: Right.

Eric: Which will lead to some pretty good shows probably to start the year. So, one other feature before we start the interview with Daniel. We started a new feature, we just wanted to do like a listener spotlight, and we had this gentleman Kane Connell, he’s the Vice President of Retail Products and Services at Liberty First Bank — Liberty Bank for Savings, excuse me in Chicago and Kane put on social media, and I think he reached out to our producer, Caleb, who you’ve heard many times on this show. He actually ranked us; he listens to a lot of podcasts. He ranked us number two podcasts in his mind on the internet for banking.

So, we were thrilled. I told Caleb was like, man, let’s just get Kane on, so it kind of led to this new segment. Caleb sat down with him earlier this week and talked with him and it’s a segment we want to start doing just a little 10-minute feature on those folks you guys that are out there listening to us. So, we may reach out to some of you guys, we know who you are, and we may reach out to you to do this same segment for us, but we’re going to play that halfway through the interview with Daniel. So, be on the lookout for that and with that, we will go straight to the interview, Daniel Grissom with sales training. Thanks, guys, for tuning in. We are joined today by Daniel Grissom, Daniel, how are you doing man?

Daniel: Good Eric, thanks for having.

Eric: Good. Daniel, and I think met probably six years ago. I don’t even know on the basketball court.

Daniel: Could even be longer than that, Eric.

Eric: Yeah. It may be. We actually coached a kid’s basketball team together and Daniel is one of the most energetic coaches. I promise you that you will ever see in your life. If he was in the NBA, he would get a technical every five seconds for running up and down the court leaving the because of violation.

Daniel: That is so true.

Eric: Absolutely, but it was great to coach with Daniel and Daniel is probably one of the best sales trainers I’ve ever heard speak in person, and at the end of this interview, Daniel will tell you guys out there listening how to contact him, and he is great in person. He’s great virtually, just keeps the audience engaged and we are thrilled to have him here today. He’s got great information as well. So, Daniel, we’re glad you’re here, man.

Daniel: I’m glad to be here.

Eric: Let’s talk real quick. This is an interview on selling and obviously we’ve got a pre COVID selling and now we are into COVID and it’s changed, but Daniel, let’s start with kind of a simple question. What’s your definition of selling?

Daniel: Yeah. Good question. So, we all talk about selling, but let’s make sure we have the right definition of selling. Well, I think Eric selling can be divided really into two categories. I mean, it’s been said all selling is not created equally, and what do I mean? Or the research shows that there’s the small sale and then there’s the major sale. The small sale might be selling shirts, socks, shoes at the mall, at a kiosk.

The classic example of going to the airport and someone says to you, excuse me, sir. Delta visa, American express, please come over here for a second or two. Now that’s selling, but that’s small selling. That’s the transactional sale, but that’s in contrast to the major sale or the complex sale. The complex sale is typically higher dollar value. It is multiple interactions. It is multiple decision-makers. So not all sales are created equally. Yet we say sales, and no one really gets underneath that iceberg to try to discern what kind of sale is it, simple or complex?

Eric: That’s a great point you make. I think in banking and as this relates to banking, I would say most sales are complex sales. I know with what we deal with are complex. This is not, you know, grabbing somebody on a corner at an airport or in a store and the sale happens quickly, and I know you’ve talked about this, but you call a salesman a coach for the client, and I think that’s awesome because one thing we try to do as we go see customers, I guess now we don’t see them. We talk to them more over the internet. We want to bring value. So, talk about that, you know, I remember you saying it’s more of a thought partnership. I love that term. Talk about that.

Daniel: Yeah. Well, okay. Well, let’s unpack, now that we’ve talked a little bit about kind of the definition of selling let’s double click on that because Eric, I think the reality is that selling is dead, but value creation is alive. Now for some of these sellers, they probably just put on their safety belt. Okay, but selling is dead. The client, or the prospect doesn’t want our sales call, but they do want our value creation call, and so that slight change in thinking and in language is very key, and so with that in mind, I mean, how do you drive value?

Well, you got to be a coach to the client. In other words, a coach really is a thought partner when you and I were doing upward basketball with your son and my son, we were basically running huddles, breaking down game footage and really being good thought partners, helping them think about what plays to run, to make good things happen quickly. Well in the same vein, there’s the corporate athlete or the corporate coach and they get paid to be a coach to the client. That client might be inside the banking industry inside the company, or it might be an outside client, you know, the ultimate customer, but in either case it’s about driving value and being a good thought partner, not a seller or not a manager.

Eric: Daniel, what’s the biggest change that you’ve seen kind of going from pre COVID to post COVID in the sales environment itself. Now, like you talked about in banking, we think a lot about what we do as an educational, you know, service. We provide some education to the client, and then we sort of kind of try to get them down that sales road via that direction. Obviously that face-to-face contact has kind of gone away given the, you know, given the current situations. How do you see us handling that sales and that coaching opportunity given this post COVID world?

Daniel: Well, to your point you know, the number one change post COVID is the access to the client. So, we have less access to them, and so that makes it a little tougher to drive value. Maybe, you know, it was difficult enough doing it in person. Now we’ve got to do it virtually. I call it creating virtual value, easy to say, harder to do, but if I could speak on behalf of the client or the prospect, they’re essentially saying, listen, yeah, I’ve got more competing priorities. I’ve got less time, but if you’re here to drive value, I want to find a way or make a way to get you on my calendar. If you’re here to sell or pitch, forget about it.

So, I just think that the client or the prospect’s decision criteria, their standards of excellence have just gone up a notch given, you know, zoom fatigue, and COVID competing priorities. I think that the banker who, well, you said education earlier Caleb, and I think this, I believe this is true. Education is influence. So, we call it selling, but we really should be calling it educating. You know, the more you educate and what I mean by educate is bringing the client or the prospect news they can use. Now plan A is telling them something that they don’t know that can help them, you know, achieve a goal, or avoid a problem, you know, with their practice, with their customers, et cetera, that’s plan A, but sometimes customers and prospects are just as smart if not smarter than us.

So, then we need to go to plan B and share our POV point of view because oftentimes clients will say just like, no, you watch CNN or Fox News, whoever your favorite show is a commentator. It’s not that you don’t know what happened with the election, let’s say, but you want to hear that person’s POV their point of view or the V could be point of value, and so I think that we in the banking industry have to be positioned to bring the client news they can use plan A, and then plan B, if they’re already aware of the news, we’ve got to be able to share our unique point of view that might be individual, and that might be even a corporate point of view. Does that make sense?

Eric: Yeah, that does make sense. So, let me ask you this Daniel, because we’ve got customers like this, we’ve got prospects like this. We send a lot of information out to customers, that’s news they can use for sure, and we’ve had this debate. It’s like, man, we’re sending a lot of stuff that we think is really good. We wouldn’t send it if we think it was good, we’re sending a lot of stuff to folks that we would love to do business with, but we don’t do anything with them, and in some cases it’s our fault we’re not even following up with them, but if we’ve got a client that, you know, there’s dialogue and we’re good on news they can use, and we just can’t seem to get them. We can’t push them across the finish line to do something with us. What’s the best advice you give us in a situation like that, because I know there’s folks here listening, they’ve got customers they’d love to have, but they just can’t seem to get them. COVID’s kind of hurt that. What’s the best advice you could give in a situation like that?

Daniel: That’s a toughy coach. Well, hear my thoughts though. I think principle number one is to get to the truth quickly. So, your point is, hey Daniel, we’ve had a prospect in the pipeline we’ve been trying to get to yes, sending them stuff, news they can use, you know what Eric? It might just turn out to be that it’s not a fit either permanently or maybe it’s just a short-term reality, but what I find is too many times, Eric, we’re willing to dance instead of advance. In other words, how do you know whether or not you’ve got a real prospect or just a suspect? In like any relationship like in dating after two or three kind of, you know, reaching out phone calls, emails, social, whatever, you know, it might be in terms of the metaphor.

If you’re not getting any traction, the message is now is not the right time. It maybe you; it might be the other person. It might just be timing, but in personal relationships we call it. We say, you know what? It’s just not happening. Let’s move on, but for some reason in sales, we just keep knocking, keep calling, keep stalking and I think part of the messages you got to get to the truth and sometimes the truth is that it’s a red light, not a green light and that’s a hard truth. I think the second thing though, is if we’re going to turn yellow lights into green lights, or as my wife would say, color switch, right? So green means go, yup, yellow says slow maybe, and red says, no, not going to happen.

This is just a suspect. I think that if we have what I’m going to call a yellow light, a maybe, I think then what we’ve got to do, the second thing step one was really get to the truth quickly and call it like it is, but number two then is to identify really kind of their value drivers, and what I mean by that is we got to know what’s most important to them. Is it price? Is it relationship? Is it ease of doing business? Oftentimes to do what I’m going to call a color, switch, turn yellows into greens, you’ve got to speak their language. You’ve got to customize the conversation, and if they care about price, ease of doing business and relationship, then you’ve got to customize your value prop, your pitch, your emails, your reached out to speak that language. Not easy to do, but number one, you got to make a commitment to just get to the truth quickly and then number two, you’ve got to identify or anticipate their value drivers, and then customize your conversation to those value drivers.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Daniel: None of that guarantee success, but hey, it improves the probability.

Caleb: Let’s step away for just a moment from our interview with Daniel, for our community bank spotlight. Well Kane, thanks for joining us today on the community bank podcast for our bank spotlight segment, it’s good to be talking with you. How are you?

Kane: Doing good, Caleb? How are you?

Caleb: Doing great. Tell us a little bit about Liberty Bank for Savings where you guys are located and what you do there?

Kane: Liberty Bank for Savings is actually a mutual bank. I know there’s kind of less and less mutuals around, but we’ve been in Chicago since 1898 actually, and family run. We’re 850 million in assets right now. We have just five locations. So, we’re mostly in Chicago, well, I guess, I’ll mention it, we’re in Chicago. Mostly on the Northwest side and a couple of our branches are in the Northwest suburbs.

Caleb: Awesome, and one of my favorite questions to ask is just, you know, why did you get into banking and how did that, you know, why are you passionate about banking? What do you do talk about your role and kind of how you got to where you are today with the bank?

Kane: Sure. I started in banking because that was the first job that was offered to me out of high school.

Caleb: I hear that all the time. I hear that a lot.

Kane: You know, I got into a management training program with a really large bank here in Chicago, Chase Bank. I worked there for about two years as a personal banker, and they had a really great training program. I mean, we spent about six months training before we even stepped foot into a branch. So, it was really great and really got a good understanding of banking through that training program, but you know, that was in 2006, 2007, 2008. And you know, it was just a real intense sales culture at the time, and it was just kind of you know, not really my style.

I love building relationships, I love meeting new people, but I don’t like pushing products and I don’t like being salesy, and so, there was opportunity at Liberty Bank, real small you know, community bank going from like the biggest bank in the country to you know, at the time, like a 700, 750-million-dollar bank with just five branch locations. So, I came into Liberty and I just kind of love the atmosphere. I love the environment.

I love that, you know, it wasn’t about sales, it was about building relationships and helping people and you know, providing the best possible service that you could and being, you know, local and being community focused, and I started off managing one of our branches and just you know, basically my job at the time it was a relatively new branch and my job was just to go out and meet people, and I didn’t have sales goals that I was trying to hit or anything. It was just you know, gaining exposure getting the brand out there, and you know, I just really, really felt like it was the right place for me, and I’ve kind of moved up the organization and now I run products and services. So, I you know, manage all of our deposit products that we offer managing a lot of the vendor relationships, and I guess just make sure that our services, whether they’re in branch services or whether they’re digital channel services, just making sure that they’re, you know, meeting the needs of our customers.

Caleb: We were talking before we started recording here about how, where you guys are in your area community banks are getting fewer and fewer, fewer, and far between, so it sounds like you guys really get to fill a big need in your area in terms of a local community bank that has really invested in the markets that you serve.

Kane: We do, and Chicago is so like neighborhood driven. I know it’s a big place, but it really is neighborhood driven. So we’re doing just a lot of like hyper-local stuff you know, like our images and our website and some of the stuff that we’re doing is just like, so, you know, so hyper-local, you know, it’s like the statue up the street and it’s the historical theater in the town, and it’s stuff that no other banks are doing, and so, I mean, I always say, you know, you should win your zip code, and that’s all we’re trying to do is just, just, you know, when our zip code and you know, be the best bank in our zip code.

Caleb: Well, obviously COVID has presented all kinds of challenges that are universal to community banks from PPP, deferrals, credit quality issues. From where you sit, talk about some of the challenges that you’ve seen, COVID present to community banking, but also what are maybe some opportunities that COVID has made possible that wouldn’t be possible otherwise in a typical year?

Kane: The challenges, you know, for us, it’s kind of the obvious stuff. It just doesn’t seem, and I know I was talking to one of my reps this morning and she covers a lot of different States and so like kind of State by State, it’s a little different, but here in Chicago, we have just been, you know, they locked it down. Like in March, probably March through the July, it was like locked down, like government mandated.

The governor just came in and shut everything down. So, I mean, that was that was obviously difficult, and then when we came back into the office and we started opening up branches, you know, we’re going to talk to you behind a glass window with our mask on, and we’re not going to shake your hand, and, you know, gosh, I mean, I have like longtime customers who have just become friends and you, like, they come in and you give them a hug and how are you doing? How’s your parents? That was gone. I mean, it still is gone, you know, for the most part, and so I think that was you know, because I came up that way, I have such an appreciation for like what we call our frontline staff, our bankers, our tellers, our managers, and it made their job really hard.

Caleb: Yeah.

Kane: So, I’m not sure that anyone’s really, you know, knows what to do about it. I mean, we can’t take our mask off. We have to, you know, kind of protect our employees and you know, it doesn’t until, you know, maybe at some point next year, I don’t think that’s going to change, but it just in my opinion, it’s really, really been tough on, you know, on our frontline staff. Yeah.

Caleb: I heard a quote a while back that I really liked actually, I think he was the first guest we ever had on this podcast, and I asked him, you know, how do you lead your team in the age of COVID? How do you connect with customers? Something he said that I’d love to get your thoughts on, he said, you don’t have to be in person to do something personal, and so that kind of switched light bulb on for us, even with our customers to say, wow, how can we still be personal, still be active, still show them that we’re here for them.

We care about them. We’re rooting for them. You know, we want to be a part of their success, but obviously we can’t shake their hand many times. We can’t see them in person, you know, even now with all the resurgence of cases, and so any thoughts on that, of how do you continue to before your customers and before your community, when you can’t, like you were saying, shake a hand or give a hug?

Kane: Yeah. I mean, I think some of the things that we’re doing just on a high level is like you know, and Caleb, I was just kind of checking out the Centerstate Bank website and you guys do the same thing, but we changed out a lot of, like the pictures on our website. So they’re not just these like generic pictures on the website we’re changing them to real people, and so like on our website our manager here her name’s Judy and everybody loves her, so, you know, the main office homepage, we have a picture of Judy and she’s smiling and, you know, welcoming, and we’re soon going to kind of add like a little bio about her, and you know, I guess in terms of some of the things that we’re doing is just we’re trying to make our digital, you know, more personal you know, make it easier to communicate with us directly like make people understand that our call center it’s not a call center.

I hate, you know, we call it the call center, but it’s like four people in the back office who are all local and all like incredibly, you know, trained and smart people, and like, you know, they’re here for you. You’re not going to, you know, press one for this and two for this and eight for this, it’s going to go straight to someone who’s going to pick it up and who’s going to handle your call right away and we, you know, focus on our first call resolution. I guess just kind of trying to find some unique ways to help them understand that we are real people. We’re local people. You know, we’re here for you.

Caleb: That’s great. Well, if folks want to learn more about Liberty Bank for Savings, if they want to connect with you how can they find you?

Kane: LinkedIn is always a great place to find me. I post a lot on LinkedIn. I love connecting with people on LinkedIn. If you want to learn more about Liberty Bank, it’s Libertybank.com. We do have a new website coming in was one of those things. I guess we could blame COVID, but it was supposed to be out in November, then it was December and now it’s going to be January it looks like so, but you can check Libertybank.com.

Caleb: Fantastic. Well Kane, we appreciate your time. Great to hear everything you guys are doing, and we wish you the best and a Merry Christmas.

Kane: Thanks Caleb. You too.

Eric: Let’s move Daniel, now talk a little bit about, you know, the concept of coaching and sales coaching, and also the thoughts of what are the gaps that you see as far as the typical approaches.

Daniel: Yeah. Well, to me, coaching is different than managing. So, managing says, I’ve got the title and I’ve got the authority, and that’s why you should do what I’m asking you to do. I think coaching takes that and honors that, but goes one step above, and really, it’s about being an idea generator, helping your team generate ideas. I mean, in this COVID environment, I’m finding that the best results are outside the box, and I think great coaches or managers who step up to coaching, help their sales teams think outside the box, act outside the box, and I think that first starts with the manager’s mindset, that they’re not so much a manager as they are a coach, and I think the first gap is just that mindset, that the mindset that I’m a manager, not a coach.

Well, I think that’s a huge shift because when you think about yourself being a coach, coaching, being your currency. What the coach or the manager is doing is they’re really rehearsing their sales team on how to sell externally. So, in other words, if a manager is thinking that they’re a coach, and instead of running a staff meeting, they’re running strategy sessions, instead of having an hour worth of length they got 30 minutes of quality. Instead of just having a standard agenda, that manager was bringing news, this sales team can use, and Caleb, what happens is they essentially are training or upscaling their sales team so that once they see that happening internally, then the sales team kind of knows what to do externally. Well, let me clean it up and put it this way. Value creation starts first inside the organization, then it gets delivered to the customer outside of the organization. Too many times we’re focused in on the external customer. I think we ought to think about the sales team as our internal customer.

Eric: That’s a good point. Also, I love the idea that you talked about thinking outside the box because it kind of took me back to the I’m a baseball fan, The Tampa Bay Rays. They got to the world series this year and they’re not a big market team. They have a small player bowl. So, they had to kind of think outside the box and, recruiting players and getting all sorts of innovative ways to play the game, and it got them all the way to the world series. So, I think that’s a good point of thinking outside the box. Kind of taking, not business as usual. How can we go about this from a different angle? So, I think that’s very valuable information there.

Daniel: I may have said this before in our conversation, but I think that the metaphor of the corporate athlete and the corporate coach really plays out. I mean, most of us are sports fans and we know that business is the game of business, and I think that when we take complex matters and relate them to things that we love and know like sports, some of the things become a little bit more intuitive, and I think that starts with changing our language from manager to coach, from seller to coach because nobody wants selling. nobody wants manager, but everybody loves good coaching.

Eric: Daniel, let me ask you this question, obviously in COVID everything’s been turned upside down. We’ve said this on this podcast before, we’re doing stuff that we probably knew we should’ve been doing, but COVID pushed us to do it sooner and, by that, I mean, this podcast, a live stream event that we held. You’re in the world of sales and sales training. What are some things that folks are doing out there that are out of the box like you mentioned? What are some specific examples that you’re seeing and hearing about that are way out of the box than what most folks have been doing as far as sales goes?

Daniel: Yeah, let me give you two or three. So, one is joint calls. I think that not just thinking, but when I think back to what I’ve seen some customers doing since March, they’re basically using this virtual reality instead of playing defense, they’re playing offense. So, it’s easier to make joint calls now. So, for instance, there’s one company, that’s a medical device company that I support up in the Northeast and they’ve got their footprint is across the country. Well, they have subject matter experts that makes sense to be making joint calls with some of those salespeople, but in the past pre COVID to get somebody to fly in from Dallas all the way up to Boston, just wasn’t practical, but now you can get your teammate from Dallas to get online with you and have a joint call. Intentional strategic team calls.

Joint calls with clients, is one of the things that I’m saying that’s happening that’s driving more value. That’s a little bit outside the box. Now a second thing is upper management, upper management videos. Where upper management is essentially becoming an extension of the sales team. We’re in a visual world, we’re in a video world and sometimes we need the VP or the president input, senior management to create a video that basically conveys the company’s commitment to the client or to the prospect. Plan A, it can be customized to that specific prospect or client. Think about how powerful that is.

Eric: Yeah, that’s great.

Daniel: Getting the video from the president. That client then can take and kind of socialize and send via email to all the contacts inside the organization. So really, you know, again, upper management or senior management video, A, it’s a customized this video to the client, B, it might be generalized, kind of a general video. You know, hi, this is Joe Brown president of the XYZ company purpose of this video if you’re receiving it is to express our interest in going deeper with you and your company, right? So, like the president, what I’ve seen they do a customized plan, A or more of a generalized plan B, but all of that is a way to be outside the box, drive value and ignite some fresh conversations.

Eric: That’s great. We’ve actually tossed around a few of those ideas and I’ll tell you something we did going back in time, so I can’t say I came up with the idea somebody else did, but we went back and did a direct mail campaign. I mean, I used to get a lot of stuff in the mail at the office, but hardly get anything, and we thought, man, direct mail is kind of come full circle. It’s kind of out of the box where it used to be kind of what you always got. So, those are great ideas. All right. So, in closing here, we just want to tell us what the future looks like. I mean, you look into your crystal ball, the information is not going to change. I think we’re always, always have to bring value, but what’s going to be different five years from now, two years from now? What do you see?

Daniel: Well, two things, one, let me step back on, double-click on your comment about direct mail. Hey, listen guys and listeners, I don’t think there’s any silver bullet. I think it’s the combination or as a speaker said, years ago, passed away. His name was Bill Brooks. He was kind of one of my little favorites in North Carolina, and he said, the secret is in the sauce. The secret sauce, the secret is in the sauce. It’s in the combination of things, joint calls, upper management or senior management videos, direct mailing, changing your mindset to value, coaching becoming your currency. I think it’s the secret is in the sauce, Eric it’s not just one thing. It’s a combination of several things to drive value for the client, and in terms of the future. Well, I can’t tell the future, but if the past is any indication of the future, guess what? Value, value, and value more value.

Eric: Absolutely.

Daniel: Clients are going to be more value at less cost, faster, smarter asking for evidence of impact, right? Not just selling the vision but selling the impact. I think all of that is what we can anticipate, and I think that the new normal here in terms of having to earn access to the client, I think that’s probably going to stick and stay, you know, the doors may open a couple of years from now, Caleb, Eric, but in terms of, you know, availability, but something tells me they won’t open up just as wide as they did pre COVID. We’re now going to have to earn the right to get their attention. That was always true, but I think it’s going to be triple true post COVID.

Eric: Yeah, you’re exactly right. That’s something we talk about. Man, it’s a lot harder. It’s easier kind of to get in front of folks, but it’s a lot harder to probably sell right now just because that face-to-face interaction something that’s just gold and you just can’t get that as you know, even on a computer, it’s not as easy, you know, to get to know somebody that you don’t know. So, listen, we had Daniel come and speak to our group last year. He is awesome at sales training. Daniel, tell everybody listening how to get in touch with you in case they want to reach out to you.

Daniel: Sure. Well, I’m here in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can be helpful too, at least I think I can anyone anywhere. Let me just give you actually my business sale for easy peasy, and then I’ll give our viewers my email or my website, but the business cell number is 312-315-1591, and my coaching company is called Deal Closer Coaching Dot Com, and so you can reach me Daniel, D-A-N-I-E-L, [email protected]. We’re rebuilding the website, so if you went there this second, you’d see a placeholder, but if you need me now text me, email me and we’ll be happy to help you make good things happen quickly.

Eric: That’s awesome. Daniel, we appreciate you coming on today and if you go into a kid’s basketball game and you see a coach running up and down the sideline, that’s probably Daniel Go up and introduce yourself to him. Daniel, thanks for being on with us, man.

Daniel: God bless you man.

Eric: Thanks Daniel. Thank you.

Daniel: All right. Take care then.